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USMC TOE's for Korea

 
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tomc300



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Knoxville, TN

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: USMC TOE's for Korea Reply with quote

Subject says it all guys, I am trying to setup some scenarios
for early Korean conflict when the war was still mobile.
However, GHQ's TOE for modern only covers Marines from 1977
forward. The WWII TOE is also not usable as I have it on good
authority the Corps underwent a major overhaul during the
drawdown in the late 40's. Even official sources are questionable
since the histories state that the Corps removed all their
M4 105mm tanks prior to deployment, replacing them with
M26's, BUT the official 1st tank btn history shows M4 105mm
Tanks operating with both M26 and M46 companies. Plus
conflicting sources say they left their 203mm heavy arty behind,
but another source says 3 btns of Gyrene 8in served in country.
AARRGGGHH!! *PULLS HAIR OUT*
I am burned out on WW2, NAM and Modern, I want a
fresh theater of war that does not include Camels on the beach.
I am specifically wanting info from August - December 1950, from
Pusan to Chosin.
Thanks in advance............


*sits in corner twitching and jerking and making obscene noises*
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piersyf
E5


Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 615
Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might help.

https://ora.ox.ac.uk objects datastreams ATTACHMENT01

It has information about the formation of a marine brigade in 1950. No clear tables given, you'll have to read it and take notes as you go.
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Guroburov
E5


Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 292
Location: Coppel, TX

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those not familiar with the Korean war:

As a funny story, at the end of WWII the Army prioritized bringing home men vs equipment. This led to a policy of "abandoned in place" for most of their gear in the Pacific as a money saving measure. The Marines, always on the short end of the economic stick couldn't afford to do that. They saw all the shiny army equipment and the proverbial light bulb went off. They then blew almost their whole budget on slapping a light coat of marine green over the army olive drab and loaded the stuff onto ships, giving them the most modern gear they'd have for years to come. And into warehouse storage they went.

When the Korean war broke out, the Joint Chiefs met and were asked for rapid reaction force projections. The Army offered up Task Force Smith, comprising all the "spare" troops they could scrape up from the Japan occupation forces. They said they could have an infantry division there in about a month with armor arriving shortly after. When it came time for the Marines, he simply said they'd have the first division with full armor landed in 2 weeks with follow up regiments arriving almost every week after. The incredulous Army chair asked where they'd find all that equipment given their official strength. The marine pointed to their warehouses near Seattle where they stored "their" leftover gear from the war. Army officers in Korea howled when "Marine" tanks with legible army markings rolled off the ships in Pusan 2 weeks later.

This is part of why you're seeing such inconsistencies between WWII TO&E and reports of what the Marines had in Korea. They used what they grabbed and put on those first ships until such time as they could mobilize standing formations. You can almost put whatever you want on the table and not be far wrong. Mind you my master's thesis was about the US Navy in Korea, but the Marines were too much fun to read about.
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tomc300



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Knoxville, TN

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.
Damn, for lack of better information I am tempted to use the 1977
TOE minus helos and ATGMs, but use the equipment of the 1946 Army Div.
I think I would swap towed guns for most of the self-propelled
versions, since the Corps typically uses fewer mobile guns than rhe
Army, M53/55 notable exceptions.
BTW, I found a novel on Chosin written by Jeff Shaara. Only on chapter 5 but it is just as good as the ACW trilogy he finished after
his father died.
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Cav Dog
E5


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 626

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This link is for the USMC in late WWII and I suspect it didn't change all that much in the intervening six years. Unfortunately it does not include anything about armor or artillery.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/OOB/Regt-TOE-F/#F-10
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tomc300



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Knoxville, TN

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link.
I have been absolutely amazed at how difficult it is to find information
on Marine forces in Korea. It is an absolute vacuum so to speak.
There are numerous books on Marine forces in WWII, Nam, and Iraq/Afghanistan. I have found less than a dozen books on USMC actions in Korea and the most informative have been a 5 book set produced by the Corps. I wondered why there was no organizational chart for Korea Era Marines in the GHQ pdf. I can only guess they ran
into the same problem I have. The best books I have found were written in 2017 or newer. I have solved one puzzle, though the Marines replaced all M4A3/105's in the Assault gun platoons with M26's before deployment, there is ample photographic evidence they kept the 9 tanks in. To Btn Hq's. What I have not pinned down is the number of M26 and M26A1 in use in fall 1950. I have photos of both variants present at Chosin.

*edit*
Osprey's book on the Inch'on Landings answered my question about Artillery. The 11th Rgt (Artillery) had 3 Battalions of m101a1 105mm and 1 battalion of m114a1 155mm. A battalion of Longton 155mm May have been attached, but I can find no corroborating evidence.
Certainly no 8in Artillery wore USMC green in Korea.


Still digging......
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whoa Mohamed
E5


Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 353
Location: Central TX

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another issue is the ** CENSORED ** armor in the Regiments like the flame and common tanks.
The porcupine command tanks are impossible to track down.
I even communicated with the marine historical folks in Washington DC the best they can guess is no more than 5 were produced and 2 or more may have been used as tactical air control party vehicles. I have never seen more than 4 actual photographs of the porcupine.
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jwbolen



Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: KOREA Reply with quote

I would suggest the book Marine Corps Tank Battles in Korea: Oscar E. Gilbert .... No wire diagrams , but information buried in thetext
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