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SBD Dauntless
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Fireball
E5


Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 241
Location: Melbourne. Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 3:20 am    Post subject: SBD Dauntless Reply with quote

Ok need help........... sorry wrong phrase... need assistance.
WW2 US carriers had 4 squadrons of aircraft fighter sq, torpedo sq. bombing sq and scouting sq.
The last two squadrons were using SBD Dauntless dive bombers my problem is this:
The dive bombing sq used aircraft with a 1000 pound bomb while the scouting squadron with 500 pound bomb to extend the range of the scouting sq,Once the enemy fleet was detected could the scouting squadron carry the 1000 pound bomb or were they hard wired for only 500 pounders?
Any instances that they ever carried the heavier load.
I'm making my aircraft counters for my carriers and don't want any mistakes....... like KGB uncle fireball does not make mistakes.

FB
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Guroburov
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Uncle Fireball,
As you say, the plane had a range of 250 miles with the 1000 lb bomb but extended to 325 miles with a 500 lb load. So there was no real reason for them to not be able to carry the heavier bomb other than a desire to extend the range by lowering the bomb load. Unless you want to reload the scouts to keep scouting for more targets.
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panzergator
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Joined: 07 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may have required a change to the trapeze that carried the bomb clear of the propeller arc to accommodate the larger bomb. I'm guessing Douglas had that covered.
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chrisswim
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From some reading, including War in the Pacific, Scouts did not always carry a bomb. Later, some fighters were used a scouts and as dive bombers since they were faster, and had longer range.
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Fireball
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Joined: 25 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm a lot of good points
There's Mr. Guroburov's interchangeable bomb loads which makes sense because it is the same plane.
On the other hand Panzergator makes equally valid point that the trapeze might have been modified to suit the 500 pound bomb.
Also Chris tells us that sometimes they flew without a bomb load which would extend the range even further.
I going to buy another whiskey so that i can study this problem further.

Thank you gents, this gives me a new perspective to look at this.

P.S i will post my counters once they look half decent.

UFB
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panzergator
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing a trapeze may not have been necessary, depending on bomb fittings, or may have been fairly simple, if Douglas Aircraft was smart with the design.
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panzergator
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't found any reference to changing the trapeze. Probably one size fits all?
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Nepty



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject: Dauntless Reply with quote

Once the scout bombers spotted the enemy fleet they would radio back to the carrier their position and then try to attack. After they dropped their bomb they would head back to the carrier if they were still alive. By the time they got back to the carrier if their carrier was not sunk or badly damaged or undergoing attack, they could rearm with 1000 pd bomb but most likely the battle would be over by then unless the enemy was real close, not likely.
The fleets would most likely move away from each other once they knew they were spotted or attacked unless one got the advantage over the other then they might close to finish them off. The one that spotted and attacked first usually had the advantage. The fleet that was spotted or attacked usually got the hell out of there as fast as they can.


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Fireball
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Joined: 25 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah I haven't found anything about the trapeze either so looks like one size fits all.
Also thanks Nepty for your input.
So this is the way i'm doing it:
500 pound bomb for initial scouting mission and 1000 pound for the second strike if like nepty said anyone survives.
One last thing, on the scouting mission they would not have any fighter cover would they?


FB
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piersyf
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be a bit off base here, but here goes; the Dauntless squadrons at Midway were divided into scout squadrons flying the SBD-2 and didn't carry anything over a 500lb bomb. They could carry 2 100lb bombs on the wings, seem to have done so for the first strike, then just 500lb after that.

The bomber squadrons were flying SBD-3 with 1000lb centreline bombs only, so it could be more a frame loading issue than anything to do with the trapeze.

SBD-5 and above could carry up to 2,250lb of bombs.

SBD pilot's notes refer to ANY aircraft carrying a bomb as a 'bomber' and scouts as carrying fuel tanks.

So... pure speculation but I'd say it comes down to 2 options; capability of the mark (using the older models as scouts because they can't carry as much) or doctrine (limit scouts to lighter loads so they don't forget their main role [doubtful] or logistics restraints [carriers can only carry so much] but that is dependent on the availability of resupply).
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Fireball
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi piersyf

So everything seems to be pointing to 1000 pound bomb for the bombing squadrons and up to 500 pounds for the scouting or no load at all.
I think in the later years US did away with the scouting squadrons but my game will depict ships up to the end of 1942 so i have to include them in the air wing complement which is turning out to be a bit of a headache hehehe.
SO for scouting rules which i'm still attempting to write it seems that the US relayed mostly on carrier based planes and flying boats but the japanese used in the main battleship or cruiser launched scout planes, flying boats and only sparingly carrier based aircraft.
Now for the japanese, was it the val diver bomber or kate torpedo bomber that was used for scouting or both?

FB
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Donald M. Scheef
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early in WWII the Japanese Navy used the Nakajima B5N [Kate] torpedo bomber for carrier-based reconnaissance. The Kate had a significantly greater range than the Aichi D3A [Val] dive bomber.
From mid-1942, the Yokosuka D4Y1-C [Judy] began to enter service. This was a dedicated reconnaissance aircraft - the early-model D4Y models were intended to be dive bombers but were ineffective in this role. Later-model Judys with radial engines were effective dive bombers.
In late 1944 the purpose-built Nakajima C6N [Myrt] entered service. This was a pure reconnaissance aircraft with no offensive weapon capability.
Don S.
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Fireball
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mr. Scheef

There was even a couple of D4Y on the Carrier Hiryu during the battle of midway.
I suppose the Kates employed in the scout role would not be armed with torpedoes.
Jeez its hard work this pacific war but i'm getting there.

FB
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piersyf
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're using counters, stack them. Have one for the aircraft and one for the load. List performance loss on the load counter. Once the load is dropped, remove the counter.

Forgot to say before, SBD cruise speed was 200kts with no bombs, 190kts with bombs, according to the pilot's notes.
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Fireball
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes i'm planning to use counters of 3 aircraft each and counters for load outs because there were also he bombs for land attacks, for the Kates in level bombing role 1800 pound bombs and such.
I just hope i'm not making it more complicated then it needs to be.

FB
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